No, my point is that nothing in this situation was justified. None of it. If, however, you feel the long term meddling in Ukraine, and invasion, by Russia is justifiable, not to mention the corruption it openly participates in that are classical empire bullshit, like having a prominent leader of your empire collateralize a billion dollar loan by a political figure, who used a lot of that money to finance their campaign, when every bank on earth had blocked his credit, and many other things, like almost completely funding mainstream popular right wing new media networks, who are all now failing when one Russian finance source got cut, you need to be seeing the nuance of the bigger empire too.
You are also skipping a number of things I brought up that signal security issues towards the EU, and just focused on what they leader of the country says. This makes me suspect of your good faith. After the fall of the USSR both Georgia, and Moldova, had infighting as new nations were being formed from the collapse. Russia then sent their military in to forcefully establish permanent military bases as a “peace keeping” operations, and violently crushed all descent to this with their military, and began propping up unrecognized “state governments” they owned as thin excuses to legitimize their actions. Now tell me, who does this sound like? Had we had not been having this conversation, and I were to tell you and unnamed country was doing this to two other unnamed countries, who would you have immediately thought I was walking about?
When faced with having to pull out, per request of the states they were occupying, in order to continue with the CFE, Russia backed completely out, and immediately began preparing their military for invading from the caucuses, and went into discussions of passing their forces through Belarusian borders. These are not just words, nor are they insignificant. This is what sparked the CIA to ramp-up efforts in those countries. They allowed the first annexations because it would hand Russia strategic resources they had long wanted. They hoped that would be the end of it. However, countries from central Asia, to Europe, warned Georgia, that Russia was preparing to move forward again. That is what ended up happening, but this time NATO had been preparing Ukraine, and began supplying them, so it wasn’t successful. This time NATO saw an opportunity to not only bleed Russia, but to also field all sort of new weapons systems, and ideas they had been practicing in theory.
This is not the story of a country who never operated its military outside of its borders, nor one who’s only evidence of threats of expansion are words. Bringing up that Russia has lost trade deals without killing everyone is dumb, the US has done the same. Russia has to be far more selective in how it exercises its hard power, because it is poorer, and less advanced in regards of military production, than the established empire.
you need to be seeing the nuance of the bigger empire too.
Sure we as people have legitimate grievances about Russian interference. But like I already mentioned (I think) this is like tethering your goat outside, unguarded, and then loudly complaining when the bear eats it. If someone can just fund a presidential candidate and the media in another country because you shrank your guberment, and social media are completely unmoderated and sell ads to the highest bidder, then that is your own fault as well. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy.
The US and EU has been doing this for many decades, economic imperialism, predatory loans, IMF, sanctions, wars etc. So Russia doing it it back is not really a justification for anything.
Sure, fuck Putin and Russia, in an ideal world there would be justice - after all previous US presidents have been brought to justice. But I did not agree to fund a proxy war that is destroying Europe. I do not deserve to be called enemy for talking about historical facts. And reality of the history is being completely denied by leftists and liberals.
Now tell me, who does this sound like?
Ok sure the US does just goes into Mexico with the DEA with the blessing of the government and do whatever they want. But mostly they own their neighbors, and only intervene in countries halfway around the world.
I find it funny that people stress that “Russia attacked their neighbor” as if that is something that makes it worse than attacking someone halfway around the world. Bizarre.
And so what, are we the world police? We do not have the right to interfere in sovereign governments or start conflicts just because we don’t like how other countries police their borders or deal or not deal with Russia. I don’t envy them but we simply do not. And that is talking as if any of this was about morality and not power.
This is what sparked the CIA to ramp-up efforts in those countries. They allowed the first annexations because it would hand Russia strategic resources they had long wanted. They hoped that would be the end of it. However, countries from central Asia, to Europe, warned Georgia, that Russia was preparing to move forward again. That is what ended up happening, but this time NATO had been preparing Ukraine, and began supplying them, so it wasn’t successful.
Do you have any evidence / sources for this idea that Russia was just about to “jump Ukraine” or whatever you make it sound like? Or what are you saying?
I’d be curious to hear it. Otherwise this sounds completely ahistorical. Afaik Ukraine was just sitting there, perfectly middling.
And we know the operation leading to Euromaidan originated by the CIA/NED because they announced it, funded it, then did it. And in 2008 Europe “decided” that Ukraine should join Nato so a regime change signaled to Russia that this was the goal. To place Nato weapons right at their border, 400 miles from Moscow.
No, my point is that nothing in this situation was justified. None of it. If, however, you feel the long term meddling in Ukraine, and invasion, by Russia is justifiable, not to mention the corruption it openly participates in that are classical empire bullshit, like having a prominent leader of your empire collateralize a billion dollar loan by a political figure, who used a lot of that money to finance their campaign, when every bank on earth had blocked his credit, and many other things, like almost completely funding mainstream popular right wing new media networks, who are all now failing when one Russian finance source got cut, you need to be seeing the nuance of the bigger empire too.
You are also skipping a number of things I brought up that signal security issues towards the EU, and just focused on what they leader of the country says. This makes me suspect of your good faith. After the fall of the USSR both Georgia, and Moldova, had infighting as new nations were being formed from the collapse. Russia then sent their military in to forcefully establish permanent military bases as a “peace keeping” operations, and violently crushed all descent to this with their military, and began propping up unrecognized “state governments” they owned as thin excuses to legitimize their actions. Now tell me, who does this sound like? Had we had not been having this conversation, and I were to tell you and unnamed country was doing this to two other unnamed countries, who would you have immediately thought I was walking about?
When faced with having to pull out, per request of the states they were occupying, in order to continue with the CFE, Russia backed completely out, and immediately began preparing their military for invading from the caucuses, and went into discussions of passing their forces through Belarusian borders. These are not just words, nor are they insignificant. This is what sparked the CIA to ramp-up efforts in those countries. They allowed the first annexations because it would hand Russia strategic resources they had long wanted. They hoped that would be the end of it. However, countries from central Asia, to Europe, warned Georgia, that Russia was preparing to move forward again. That is what ended up happening, but this time NATO had been preparing Ukraine, and began supplying them, so it wasn’t successful. This time NATO saw an opportunity to not only bleed Russia, but to also field all sort of new weapons systems, and ideas they had been practicing in theory.
This is not the story of a country who never operated its military outside of its borders, nor one who’s only evidence of threats of expansion are words. Bringing up that Russia has lost trade deals without killing everyone is dumb, the US has done the same. Russia has to be far more selective in how it exercises its hard power, because it is poorer, and less advanced in regards of military production, than the established empire.
Sure we as people have legitimate grievances about Russian interference. But like I already mentioned (I think) this is like tethering your goat outside, unguarded, and then loudly complaining when the bear eats it. If someone can just fund a presidential candidate and the media in another country because you shrank your guberment, and social media are completely unmoderated and sell ads to the highest bidder, then that is your own fault as well. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy.
The US and EU has been doing this for many decades, economic imperialism, predatory loans, IMF, sanctions, wars etc. So Russia doing it it back is not really a justification for anything.
Sure, fuck Putin and Russia, in an ideal world there would be justice - after all previous US presidents have been brought to justice. But I did not agree to fund a proxy war that is destroying Europe. I do not deserve to be called enemy for talking about historical facts. And reality of the history is being completely denied by leftists and liberals.
Ok sure the US does just goes into Mexico with the DEA with the blessing of the government and do whatever they want. But mostly they own their neighbors, and only intervene in countries halfway around the world.
I find it funny that people stress that “Russia attacked their neighbor” as if that is something that makes it worse than attacking someone halfway around the world. Bizarre.
And so what, are we the world police? We do not have the right to interfere in sovereign governments or start conflicts just because we don’t like how other countries police their borders or deal or not deal with Russia. I don’t envy them but we simply do not. And that is talking as if any of this was about morality and not power.
Do you have any evidence / sources for this idea that Russia was just about to “jump Ukraine” or whatever you make it sound like? Or what are you saying?
I’d be curious to hear it. Otherwise this sounds completely ahistorical. Afaik Ukraine was just sitting there, perfectly middling.
And we know the operation leading to Euromaidan originated by the CIA/NED because they announced it, funded it, then did it. And in 2008 Europe “decided” that Ukraine should join Nato so a regime change signaled to Russia that this was the goal. To place Nato weapons right at their border, 400 miles from Moscow.