The 1930s famine in the USSR was not intentionally inflicted nor directed, and therefore was not a genocide. What happened was a combination of adverse weather conditions with kulaks, bourgeois farmers, burning their crops and killing their livestock to resist collectivization. Collectivization increased agricultural output and ended famine in regions where it was historically common.
As for the Falun Gong, they are a cult, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Thank you so much, comrade! I try to foster an environment where this kind of discussion is the norm for communists, so we can advance the general level of education and help each other learn more! 🫡
I really enjoy your comments. You’re even handed, considerate, and informative so I think you’ll take this push back well.
The word cult is a slippery term that is generally a perjorative morphing to the intentions of both writer and reader. A more neutral term would be the preferred academic term of “new religious movement” while highlight specific harmful behaviors that might make it either immoral, illegal, or culturally distasteful.
I hope that you see the value in being more specific with the term.
For me, it’s more than just the dangers of their ideas. Its mechanisms of control. Can members come and go freely? Do the members have a livelihood separate from the religious community? Do they have access to other perspective or is their information limited and curated? Do they use their doctrines to create obedience to the leadership? Is their financial obligation to the movement more onerous than other religious groups? Can a member leave tomorrow without being stalked or harassed?
As far as I’ve seen, Falun Gong practitioners generally live normal, secular lives and aren’t financially ‘captured’ by the organization. They might have strange or even ‘subversive’ views, but if the mechanism of total control isn’t there, ‘NRM’ remains the more precise academic fit.
This is not a defense of their views. If our net is just fringe ideas, the net would be cast too wide and catch otherwise socially accepted groups.
@Cowbeehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Holodomor was a genocide. Ukraine had grain quotas and Stalin exported them instead of feeding the Ukrainians. And collectivization of farmers was not an act against bourgeois but against farmers that are not member of the party. My village too they just give the land of nonparty members to party members creating new bourgeois.
The famine was not preventable, and there’s absolutely no evidence that the soviets wanted to replace ethnic minorities, the opposite is true. The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation. The kulak system was a bourgeois system of farming, where wealthy farmers employed poor laboring workers to toil the land, and collectivization improved yields while equalizing distribution.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.
Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Comrade Kosior!
You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation invillages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?
Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of
the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.
Sincerely, J. Stalin
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. All evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
As for Falun Gong, they are persecuted as a subversive cult and terrorist agency. They are not an ethnicity. There is no organ harvesting or torture, these are baseless western allegations, just like “white genocide” in South Africa. Directing you back to my previous comment:
As for the Falun Gong, they are a cult, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Repeating western atrocity propaganda entirely uncritically stems from a deep sense of chauvanism and orientalism. Despite lacking any and all credible evidence backing your claims, you repeat them dogmatically. The only credible explanation for such dogmatism on your part is a deliberate choice to ignore truth, so as to lay cover for racist views underneath, whether you realize it or not.
And how would you explain sudden increase of organ transplants in China after 1999 before china had even an organ transplant system. There are many evidence reports about it like 2007 and 2016 the slaughter and bloody harvest and there was 2020 UN tribunal to which China did not even bother attending to present it’s evidence
Population transfer is the only actual mistake of the communists that you’ve brought up. Marxist-Leninists today agree that this was one of the biggest legitimate crimes of the USSR, though it was not done for “Russification.” Instead, population transfer happened during a time of constant turmoil and subversion, out of a sense of paranoia. Culture was still protected, and Russian culture did not replace local ethnic cultures, there was a simultaneous push for a “soviet” internationalist culture with preservation of local ethnicities and culture, even with population transfer. Still a crime, but the only actual crime you’ve brought up thus far.
As for the Falun Gong, again, they are a cult akin to Scientology, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
You’re uncritically believing the equivalent of 5g cell towers causing brainwashing, or Bill Gates trying to microchip everyone with vaccines. You do this not because you’re incapable of seeing truth, but because you deliberately believe convenient lies.
@Cowbee well isn’t it convenient to label every inconvenient truth as “western propaganda”. Probably for you Stalins gulags are also Western propaganda? Priests from Germany were sent to Siberian prison for 10 years same as Nazi soldiers from here. Czech Germans sent on death marches.
Organ harvest happens on scale, you cannot explain the organ tourism in China and that hospitals have sometimes multiple floors of transplant surgery rooms in a culture where organ donation is not even popular.
@sharkfucker420 can tankie bird draw a line with genocide?
Yes, communists don’t support genocide.
@Cowbee then why so many deny the holodomor and justify the crazy shit Stalin did? And what’s with the genocide of Falun gong and Uyghur in China?
The 1930s famine in the USSR was not intentionally inflicted nor directed, and therefore was not a genocide. What happened was a combination of adverse weather conditions with kulaks, bourgeois farmers, burning their crops and killing their livestock to resist collectivization. Collectivization increased agricultural output and ended famine in regions where it was historically common.
As for the Falun Gong, they are a cult, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
You have the patience of a saint, comrade. Thank you for always bringing evidence and asserting it politely.
Thank you so much, comrade! I try to foster an environment where this kind of discussion is the norm for communists, so we can advance the general level of education and help each other learn more! 🫡
I really enjoy your comments. You’re even handed, considerate, and informative so I think you’ll take this push back well.
The word cult is a slippery term that is generally a perjorative morphing to the intentions of both writer and reader. A more neutral term would be the preferred academic term of “new religious movement” while highlight specific harmful behaviors that might make it either immoral, illegal, or culturally distasteful.
I hope that you see the value in being more specific with the term.
I hear your critique, but I do mean it in a negative way, due to beliefs such as the Falun Gong claiming “race-mixing severs connection to the gods,” or believing modern science was created by aliens to take over human bodies. They have been persecuted not for being a new religious movement, but for their dangerous, far-right views and subversion. Does that justify using the word “cult?”
For me, it’s more than just the dangers of their ideas. Its mechanisms of control. Can members come and go freely? Do the members have a livelihood separate from the religious community? Do they have access to other perspective or is their information limited and curated? Do they use their doctrines to create obedience to the leadership? Is their financial obligation to the movement more onerous than other religious groups? Can a member leave tomorrow without being stalked or harassed?
As far as I’ve seen, Falun Gong practitioners generally live normal, secular lives and aren’t financially ‘captured’ by the organization. They might have strange or even ‘subversive’ views, but if the mechanism of total control isn’t there, ‘NRM’ remains the more precise academic fit.
This is not a defense of their views. If our net is just fringe ideas, the net would be cast too wide and catch otherwise socially accepted groups.
I see your point, I’ll try to be more clear next time, but in doing so will need to point out their far-right extremism as well.
I think that’s fair.
@Cowbee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Holodomor was a genocide. Ukraine had grain quotas and Stalin exported them instead of feeding the Ukrainians. And collectivization of farmers was not an act against bourgeois but against farmers that are not member of the party. My village too they just give the land of nonparty members to party members creating new bourgeois.
Genocide against Falun gong and muslims is still genocide. Organs are harvested and they do slave labor torture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
Incorrect on all counts.
The famine was not preventable, and there’s absolutely no evidence that the soviets wanted to replace ethnic minorities, the opposite is true. The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation. The kulak system was a bourgeois system of farming, where wealthy farmers employed poor laboring workers to toil the land, and collectivization improved yields while equalizing distribution.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. All evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
As for Falun Gong, they are persecuted as a subversive cult and terrorist agency. They are not an ethnicity. There is no organ harvesting or torture, these are baseless western allegations, just like “white genocide” in South Africa. Directing you back to my previous comment:
Repeating western atrocity propaganda entirely uncritically stems from a deep sense of chauvanism and orientalism. Despite lacking any and all credible evidence backing your claims, you repeat them dogmatically. The only credible explanation for such dogmatism on your part is a deliberate choice to ignore truth, so as to lay cover for racist views underneath, whether you realize it or not.
@Cowbee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
He seems to love local cultures so much he transfered ethnic minorities to Siberia and replaced them with Russians to bring Russian culture.
And how would you explain sudden increase of organ transplants in China after 1999 before china had even an organ transplant system. There are many evidence reports about it like 2007 and 2016 the slaughter and bloody harvest and there was 2020 UN tribunal to which China did not even bother attending to present it’s evidence
Population transfer is the only actual mistake of the communists that you’ve brought up. Marxist-Leninists today agree that this was one of the biggest legitimate crimes of the USSR, though it was not done for “Russification.” Instead, population transfer happened during a time of constant turmoil and subversion, out of a sense of paranoia. Culture was still protected, and Russian culture did not replace local ethnic cultures, there was a simultaneous push for a “soviet” internationalist culture with preservation of local ethnicities and culture, even with population transfer. Still a crime, but the only actual crime you’ve brought up thus far.
As for the Falun Gong, again, they are a cult akin to Scientology, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
A hospital supposedly claimed to be for “organ harvesting” with 6000 Falun Gong members was visited by US officials, finding it to be a regular hospital, and this document leaked by Wikileaks and intentionally hidden by the US gov
The claims all come from the self-appointed “China Tribunal,” run by a British barrister that has historically prosecuted socialist countries
The sources for the claims are the Falun Gong itself, akin to saying Scientologists reporting on far-right conspiracy theories are trustworthy
The Falun Gong claims “race-mixing severs connection to the gods”
The Falun Gong believes modern science was created by aliens to take over human bodies
You’re uncritically believing the equivalent of 5g cell towers causing brainwashing, or Bill Gates trying to microchip everyone with vaccines. You do this not because you’re incapable of seeing truth, but because you deliberately believe convenient lies.
@Cowbee well isn’t it convenient to label every inconvenient truth as “western propaganda”. Probably for you Stalins gulags are also Western propaganda? Priests from Germany were sent to Siberian prison for 10 years same as Nazi soldiers from here. Czech Germans sent on death marches.
Organ harvest happens on scale, you cannot explain the organ tourism in China and that hospitals have sometimes multiple floors of transplant surgery rooms in a culture where organ donation is not even popular.
because that’s laughable and debunked western garbage propaganda you’re spouting But thanks for your input CIA
Removed by mod
Liberals don’t even bother to learn their own talking points anymore.