Yeah I don’t think there’s any basis to the quote.

Interestingly the earliest composed Christian document that has been recovered (the didache, the copy we have is from Ca. 1000 CE, but seems to be in the original Greek) condemns infanticide, specifically including by exposure to the elements. It also prohibits private property so the document is not taken authoritatively by many modern christians.

It’s not, but it seems Argentina doesn’t think people should be allowed to own their phones.

I’m not convinced that just cash will solve homelessness or poverty. It may help, but it seems like a “give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime” kinda situation. Give people the fish so they can eat, but if you want them to actually be independent, then you gotta make sure they have the tools they need to do so.

I think the reason you’ve taken so much flak is that money isn’t fish. Money can be converted into tools. Yes, of course you’re right that some people won’t use the money in a way which will end their homelessness, and may benefit from ‘other programs’. But the meme was specifically about people objecting to the idea of giving poor people money so that they can solve their own problems. Rolling out ‘other programs’ is great, but the ‘other programs’ will be much more effective if they’re not clogged with people that can solve their own problems with a bit of cash.

Sorry that it has taken me a long time to respond, I’ve been at the cabin, away from my phone.

Yeah the problem is that because of the history of discrimination we don’t have words for relatively harmless discriminatory tendencies. So if I were to say

I have racist tendencies

it sounds like I’m admitting to being a “capital R” racist, when what I mean is,

I was taught incorrect stereotypes by media as a child, and sometimes despite my best efforts to be egalitarian, these biases cause me to make bad judgements. I try to notice when this happens, to make sure I treat people fairly.

Yeah I’m not saying anyone is a jerk for having sexual interest only with feminine people with vaginas and boobs, I’m just saying that it’s kinda trans-erasure (and therefore technically transphobic) to say

I’m exclusively attracted to cis-women

Because a person doesn’t know the assigned birth sex of every woman they’ve ever been attracted to.

OurToothbrush was offended because she is a transwoman and attracts men that think they’re exclusively attracted to cis-women. She’s on the front line of transphobia, and searching for a partner puts her at a too real risk of being murdered by a transphobe.

Yeah it sounds like absolution is a relevant term. People like to think that there are only biological males and biological females and that’s that. It’s not that simple. People like to think that there are racists and non-racists and that’s that. It’s not that simple. People like to think that there are transphobes and non-transphobes and that’s that. It’s not that simple. To me, being an ally is is about supporting a community to defeat unfair discrimination. Imo supporting individuals with friendship isn’t exactly the same but it’s better than nothing.

Sorry that it has taken me a long time to respond, I’ve been at the cabin, away from my phone.

Yeah the problem is that because of the history of discrimination we don’t have words for relatively harmless discriminatory tendencies. So if I were to say

I have racist tendencies

it sounds like I’m admitting to being a “capital R” racist, when what I mean is,

I was taught incorrect stereotypes by media as a child, and sometimes despite my best efforts to be egalitarian, these biases cause me to make bad judgements. I try to notice when this happens, to make sure I treat people fairly.

Yeah I’m not saying anyone is a jerk for having sexual interest only with feminine people with vaginas and boobs, I’m just saying that it’s kinda trans-erasure (and therefore technically transphobic) to say

I’m exclusively attracted to cis-women

Because a person doesn’t know the assigned birth sex of every woman they’ve ever been attracted to.

Yes saying that you’re exclusively attracted to cis women is an easy short hand.

I think OurToothbrush is frustrated with the erasure of transwomen that you fail to identify as trans.

I think when you said:

I had never met a transfem whose body I found attractive.

You don’t actually know if you’ve ever found a trans-woman attractive because you don’t know the birth details of every women you’ve ever found attractive. Some of them could be trans.

It’s not something I was particularly cognizant of either before seeing OurToothbrush’s reaction.

I think I would have trouble getting it up for a blow job from a smoking hot women after I learned she had a penis. I’m willing to concede that that is technically transphobic. I don’t think it changes the fact that I am an ally of the trans rights movement.

Just say you’re a cis-het male ally and I think everyone will know what you mean. It’s too bad this has been sick an ugly experience, it’s still a hell of a lot easier than gender dysphoria.

Hey MapleEngineer,

I’ve seen you around before and know you’re acting in good faith, and I believe you’re an ally, or at least a potential ally, to the trans community.

I’m chiming in here because I replied to OurToothbrush earlier to give her a cis-het male ally’s perspective, and suggest that she might have more success with a less confrontational strategy.

She suggested I might have better luck explaining her objection to you, or at least that she would appreciate me trying to help you understand her point.

Both your comments are coming fast and furious so I’m trying to respond to your latest.

So here goes:

Your basic point was that you’re exclusively interested in cis-women, and that this is a preference you have, everyone is entitled to preferences so what’s the big deal. It doesn’t mean you’re not an ally.

Life is complex. Just as there’s nobody that’s purely “racially white” (race isn’t real, but that’s beside the point, or maybe it is the point…), there’s nobody that’s purely female or male. Obviously most people’s bodies develop either testicles or ovaries not both, but: there is a sizable portion of the population where it’s not so clear cut. Ultimately: Every person has mutations in their DNA that skew their body towards and away from what’s considered masculine/feminine.

While sexual orientation towards masculine/feminine people doesn’t seem to be strongly influenced by culture (ie I don’t think you can raise a kid to be gay), what a person perceives to be masculine/feminine/trans IS strongly a product of their culture and conditioning.

Viewing sexuality and gender through the framework I laid out above and considering her experiences may help you understand why OurToothbrush sees transphobia where you see sexual preference.

OurToothbrush’s experience seems to be that lots of ‘cis-het-men’ say they aren’t attracted to trans-women, but are in fact attracted to trans-women like her. When they discover that she is a trans-woman they have very negative reactions. Since the (former) suitors were attracted to her until they guessed she was assigned male at birth, but before they had learned the status of her genitalia, how can she conclude anything other than transphobia? Do you see how their reaction is basically the same as your statement?

I pointed out to her that transphobia and homophobia are beaten into men/boys and if they have a negative reaction to learning that a women that they’re attracted to was assigned male at birth, it doesn’t mean they aren’t allies, just that they haven’t unlearned that phobic conditioning. It’s a type of internalized latent transphobia that has infected me too. I don’t dwell on it because as a person in a committed monogamous relationship for over half of my life, it is unlikely to matter, and I suspect it would be a monumental undertaking to unlearn. The effort is better spent healing rifts between allies.

Can you understand why when someone says “I’m exclusively interested in cis-women” a person with OurToothbrush’s experiences might hear “trans-women are gross”.

Tldr; I think I see where you’re both coming from. We cis-het-men are notoriously fragile, especially when our allyship is questioned. I think it will be more effective for people trying to point out people’s latent transphobia to take an educational/ collaborative tone at first, and it’s something I’m going to try to do a better job of helping people understand.

Honestly, thank you two for having this spat so that I could map it out in my head better, I’m not sure I’ve done the best job typing it out though. You’re both welcome to tell me to fuck off.

Having read about your experiences (elsewhere in the thread, you hadn’t posted them when I started my prior comment) I understand your reaction better.

I’ll try to explain it to MapleEngineer.

Are you nitpicking an ally for using “exclusive” instead of “principal”?

MapleEngineer doesn’t actually know for sure that he has never been attracted to a trans woman. So it’s important to correct him when he says he has an exclusive sexual interest in cis-women.

Is that your point? That failing to acknowledge the nuance that sexuality exists on a spectrum must be addressed confrontationally because it’s erasure?

Transphobia and homophobia are too often literally (yes, I mean literally) beaten into men. We have to work to unlearn it. If an ally says he wouldn’t be able to keep it up if he learned the woman he was courting was assigned male at birth, believe him, but don’t discount him as an ally. Imo your efforts are better spent combating active transphobia than policing your allies. If their terminology hurts you, suggest better ways to articulate their points but do it collaboratively instead of confrontationally.

Just my two cents.

Ah I see thanks

Can you elaborate?

I love to be pedantic so I’ll point out that it had to be 3 equal mutually perpendicular golden ratio rectangles

Does anyone have an analysis comparing the Fremen of Frank Herbert’s Dune to the the Aiel of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time?

The Pope is woke! Gender ideology IS toxic.

We should support the catholic church in their initiative to reform their sexist gender roles.

I’m impressed the patriarch of Rome is so invested in dismantling the patriarchy.

… wait that’s not what he means? He supports highly defined gender roles? What a toxic ideology.

Oh the injustice of people opting for a different meme template!

Ironic.

Holly shot! Reminds me of a recirculating linear bearing, not what they were testing and not what they’re suggesting the Egyptians did but neat parallel.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with the N word used in an history lesson.

Have you spoken to any [other] people that have been subjected to anti-black bigotry directly about how its inclusion would affect them in a lesson?

I am a white man that had a similar view to you. About 10 years ago I had a conversation with a black classmate about appropriate use of that word. It was my position that it’s too bad we continually empower the word by avoiding it even in dry intellectual contexts and we shouldn’t censor it when reading quotations.

She said:

I know you’re not being racist but it still makes me super uncomfortable to hear you say it.

I made the decision not to say it ever again. Obviously my classmate can’t speak for all black people, every person has different experiences, and reactions will be along a continuum. There might be situations where the educational value of using that word explicitly, outweighs the discomfort it causes. But I think it’s pretty inappropriate for me to ‘whitesplain’ prejudice (and the language of prejudice, and the power… of the language of prejudice)

Teachers have to ask themselves: How much will its explicit use enhance the lesson? How many students are we willing to risk alienating? How much time would we like to spend defending our decision to use the word explicitly? How much of that will be class time?

Even with a lengthy preamble setting the perfect context to use it explicitly with minimal potential for alienating students there’s a significant chance we’ll fuck it up and spend the rest of the class reteaching the class why we think they are wrong to be offended.

Some of them will be disingenuous, some of them will be sincerely offended white soyboys not too dissimilar to me, some of them will be legitimately alienated racialized minorities.

We’d also be implicitly asking the non offended racialized minorities to stick up for us. Their well meaning friends will ask them to weigh in on the subject (and speak for all blacks). It’s not fair to them.

In a context where class time is limited, I have to think that students are best served with more lesson time and less meta-discussion. So I don’t think it’s a good idea to use the word explicitly in educational contexts, unless maybe there’s some sort of vetting of students for the course.

I’m happy my comment has sparked some thought. You asked a lot of open ended questions and I can’t take the time to address them right now I hope you’re not disappointed when you learn all i have to say right now is that:

Not every suicide is illogical, and I’m thankful to live in a society that recognizes that, and provides medical assistance in dieing but I don’t have enough information to weigh in with more specificity than that.

A slightly different hot take:

Professing to be a mormon is a logical decision if your culture is mormon.

Disinterest in pursuing a more empirical world view is not illogical if one would have to damage their relationship with those closest to them in its pursuit.

(Sorry about the pretentiousness of that (and this) sentence, I can’t find a more vernacular way of expressing these ideas succinctly).