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10 days agoThat’s an oversimplification that bolsters your side of things in a bad faith way.
So… typical tankie behavior.
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Cake day: October 4th, 2024
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“Anyone who pops my echo chamber bubble is a troll.”
You’re one reader, actually, but I applaud you for saying something. That said, your instance is no coincidence. Obviously tankies are going to back tankies no matter what; that’s one of the defining characteristics of a tankie.
Before I consider your opinion, please attempt this tankie-screening captcha:
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Is there a genocide of the Uyghurs going on right now and is it the fault of the CCP?
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Did the Holodomor happen and was it a manmade famine perpetrated by the USSR?
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Is the Kim dynasty of the DPRK a hereditary dictatorship wherein there is brutal violence and starvation to suppress dissidence to enforce the strict hierarchy of the regime?
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It is incredibly racist to start accusing someone of being a foreigner any time there’s a miscommunication.
Absolutely not, no. Xenophobic maybe, but in the context of someone spreading propaganda for foreign governments like Russia, DPRK, and China do routinely, it’s absolutely not racist to suspect someone shilling for those regimes might actually be from those countries. It’d be like accusing me of being an American because I dislike tankies. “Oh no, racism!”
And to be clear, this miscommunication is entirely on you, having admitted that you refused to clarify on the basis of “I don’t respect you.”
No, the miscommunication rests on your inability to parse logic written in English and my refusal to hold your hand because you gave me tankie vibes, which by now you have confirmed to be a good suspicion.
English is my first language, and I am a white American.
No point in saying that at this stage. “I promise, dear internet stranger, I am not lying!”
There is absolutely no grasping at straws here.
“Your opnion is incorrect. Mine is correct.”
Thanks for practicing your writing and helping me practice my reading? Not a very convincing argument so I suppose that was the only reason you wrote it.
Imagine someone went up to order coffee and the barista mixed up their order, and they immediately started accusing them of being a foreigner, demanding to know if they “needed a translator” to get the order right, after that person had spent some time defending someone bending over backwards to whitewash [insert foreign country]. That person would very clearly and obviously be a racist, just like you.
There you go, fixed your metaphor.
Rude, yes. Racist? No.
You tankies exhaust non-tankies with your constant bad faith tactics and you get all pissy when you get rude responses back. Sorry I’m not sorry. Scurry back to tankie spaces if you don’t want that kind of reaction, I guess.
Maybe you’re just too used to dismissing accusations of racism as “tankie nonsense” to see it, but it doesn’t stop being racist just because you add a political context.
You’ve got it backwards. If I say things critical of Russia/China/DPRK on Lemmy when lemmy.ml people are present, they run out of the woodwork to accuse me of being racist. Cue eye-roll.
And you decided to go all in on the distinction between “Using a Marxist definition” and “using a definition that may be Marxist but I’m not sure and also I assumed they were using it in bad faith?”
Let’s be clear. That is the miscommunication you refused to clarify.
Again you stretch the truth to fit a nice straw man to attack. I can’t comprehend what I wrote for you, and I can only re-write it to clarify so many times before it becomes clear that you don’t actually care or have the ability to understand what I was saying.
That is what caused you to go full racist and accuse me of being an illiterate foreigner
Literally never accused you of being “an illiterate foreigner.” I accused you of English not being your first language OR you struggling with logic.
Again, DPRK/China/Russia/etc. are known to have divisions of internet trolls attempting to influence the West. That’s what I suspect you of. That’s not racist.
Oh yeah you definitely had the dictionary locked in better than me, no question.
It’s too bad that’s not what we were really discussing, and it’s too bad tankies can’t stand on their own without bad faith tactics.
If I misunderstood how you think about socialism please correct me. Just sounded like what I’ve heard before.
That’s a high word count for “I employed a straw man;” you padding for length?
When I said nothing is bloodless I mean politically.
Nah, if everything in politics is bloody then dropping nuclear bombs on every city center is the same as saying “Hello” in a city council meeting. You’re being ridiculous.
Does everyone say the world should be better for workers? Doesn’t seem that way to me but I grew up around rich Republicans so maybe that’s just weird.
Yes, Republicans have always said they “fight for the working class.” For someone who thinks themselves as pretty politically aware, you’re pretty politically unaware.
I’m bad at spelling and grammar lol, I’m not capitalizing to manipulate you. I’m just shooting the shit with you although you came off so hostile this time I should probably call it quits but here I am typing away like I’m still emailing for work
Yeah you did a whole bunch of tankie red-flags in the last comment, and I don’t like tankies.
Actually intent is a part of the definition of genocide so you are incorrect
“Committed with intent to destroy” …
Cool. Enjoy your pedantic victory. You want to say “the negligent deaths of a great many people” to pad for more length, you go right ahead.
I’m not doing whataboutism… I was drawing parrells to other real world events to compare the holodomor and what is happening to the UYGHURS in china as I don’t think those events where genocide but I do think they were horrible.
You were. You either don’t think you were doing a Whataboutism because you didn’t mean to, or you want others to believe you weren’t doing a Whataboutism. Either way, you were.
Hell let me put it this way chattel slavery in the USA was horrible but it wasn’t genocide either. Do you get what I’m saying?
Yep, reading your pedantic point loud and clear.
I get why you think of it as a direction and not a concrete definition. Seems like most people think of it that way, like when the government does stuff it’s socialism and when it does alot of stuff it’s communism.
“Anyone with a different opinion is stupid. Watch, I’ll twist their beliefs into a very stupid version of it.”
Sure, buddy.
Kills me that that’s the way people think of it because of how unproductive it is but I get it…
Yeah, I get it too, you don’t like when people aren’t tankies.
I don’t think anything is bloodless.
What are you talking about? Glancing at a cloud is bloodless.
Staying status quo and voting is super bloody with all the conflict and genocide going on too. I would like an end state that creates a better world for workers.
Literally everyone discussing politics says that the world should be less violent and better for the working class. Save your platitudes for someone they will impress.
I’d argue the USSR was socialist and that they improved the lives of workers dramatically. That can be compared to the previous feudalist monarchy they had their bloody revolution against or the clown show capitalist country that took their place after.
I’m not saying the USSR was perfect and didn’t commit any atrocities but I’d say they were one of the better countries for their time. I think there’s a lot of propaganda, especially on the English internet about them. This is something I found a couple years ago that the CIA declassified mentioned Stalin not being a dictator and explained a bit of how the actual politics work.
Suddenly you trust capitalist imperialist western propaganda when it supports your argument? Or would you say the CIA is a trustworthy source more broadly?
I don’t think me and you were going to get to the bottom of it, but if you weren’t aware historians really contest whether or not the holodomor was intentional.
As far as the uighur genocide,
Subtly not capitalizing things to downplay/dismiss them to aid in your propaganda efforts. I see you.
For the record, nobody should care how intentional genocides are. If you do, that’s a you problem.
What’s funny to me is almost nobody knows about the Bengal famine which was done by Britain. Around the same time. It was racially targeted at Indian people and it killed nearly as many people but no one ever talks about it. Only bring it up to say the holodomor wasn’t good. It was an atrocity regardless of if it was planned or incompetence but it’s weird to me. How much we let it influence the legacy of the USSR as opposed to other countries with other atrocities.
Literal Whataboutism right out of the tankie playbook.
have you considered how weird it is that the same countries that are supporting Israel’s genocide in Palestine are the ones calling out China for this?
At the same time there is shit like the link below that makes me wonder if genocide is apt or if the treatment of uyghurs is more similar to how black Americans are treated in America. It seems like there is extra prison time and use of Labor in prison, but it doesn’t seem like a wholesale slaughter or cultural erasure.
Second Whataboutism.
No, suggesting that I need a translator is what’s racist.
It’s not racist to assert that people are always better at their native tongue than they are at second languages; that’s just linguistics and how human brains work. I’ll never be as good at my second languages as I am at English, for example. It’s not racist against my race if I or someone else says that. See how that works?
But I get it, you need to grasp at straws to malign me at this point. Propagandists gotta propaganda.
Funny, that’s not what I said. Unlike you, I’ll explain the distinction, though you probably won’t see it. I said that you accused this specific person of being a tankie based on their tendency to use Marxist definitions, not that you do the same to anyone who uses any Marxist terminology.
And again, that logic does not follow, and so it is not what I believe; I accused that specific person of being a tankie because they are doing mental gymnastics, yes by using what you consider a Marxist definition of imperialism, to assert that Russia is not imperialist. I sincerely doubt Marx would’ve thought Russia in 2026 is not imperialist. In fact, I don’t even think that person was using a Marxist definition of the term. From marxist.com:
we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
Feel free to cite Marx’s actual words on the topic if you want, as I found that harder to find.
Regardless, “opposing imperialist states” is not the definition of a non-imperialist state, as that person asserted. Nor is “invading for irredentism (and taking and profiting off of the invaded country’s resources).”
“Socialism” is a direction on a spectrum to me, not a destination. If something is kinda socialist but not completely “socialist,” I don’t think it’s meaningful use of time and energy to label it No True Socialism.
You brought up the example I’ll use: The Nordic states are more socialist than the US, for example. I think they do their economy better than we (the US) do things. In other words, we in the US need more socialism, like the Nordic states have.
Are they adhering to Marxist principles strictly, by some the definition of “socialism?” Of course not.
I also don’t think Russia or China are either, nor was the USSR. As in Animal Farm (for obvious reasons), a visionary’s vision was perverted by people who sought to seize power for themselves and just go right back to doing 9/10 of the misdeeds the old regime did under a different flag.
I don’t think a socialist revolution to install a socialist state, let alone one free of innocent blood, is even possible. We don’t have many examples to go off of in history, but it’s like, 3/3 off the top of my head went very sour a la the above. The tankies that are so bold as to risk being banned for “racism” by their home instances by admitting the USSR/China/DPRK aren’t perfect all claim that they are only imperfect because capitalists opposed and ruined their revolutions from within and without, but that stinks of fascist/authoritarian-type logic of, “The enemy is both weak and strong, and anything that we do wrong is their fault, not ours.”
In sum, I don’t think we’re likely to live to see a true national-scale Marxist economy, let alone enough to get a good sample size that it’s worth stating Marxism is clearly superior to capitalism in every way, but from what I’ve read Marx write, I think he had much more right than he had wrong. I think Stalin, Putin, Xi Jinping, and the Kim dynasty are awful. As you say, the only limit to the horror they’ve imposed on the world is their GDP and military might. Stalin had a really strong run on record-setting atrocities what with things like the Holodomor.
China is playing a thousand year game, so as their GDP and military might meets and likely exceeds ours, they may or may not start invading everyone they think they can get away with to do increasingly awful things to the people of the world. Obviously they’re genociding the Uighurs as we speak. I imagine they’re smart enough to stay under what they perceive as the nuclear line. I don’t think they think the US is willing to nuke them over Taiwan, so I think it’s likely we’ll see an invasion of Taiwan soon, and I’m honestly surprised they haven’t done it while the US is busy with Israel/Iran and Russia/Ukraine. Maybe they’re waiting to get their microchip factories up first.
Nope.
Any reader can see you’re playing silly games. Allow me to make for one less reader of yours thanks to the beautiful Lemmy feature known as: Block.
+1 in the bucket for my ongoing internal question of “Should I just block lemmy.ml?” Socialists are usually pretty cool, but it seems the tankies tend to flow from lemmy.ml more than other instances.
Jesus Christ, try to keep your racism in check.
Ah, more tankie logic; “Anti-Russian and Anti-North-Korean sentiment can only come from a place of racism.”
Well then, I guess this is the conversational path you wanted, where we yell at each other over easily resolved misunderstandings because you decided to be a dick. Entirely your choice, not mine.
Oh you surely started the douchey behavior. I definitely joined you in the mud, though.
Yeah, hey, and what were those reasons you explained in the linked thread? Let’s check:
The problem we’re discussing is that tankies employ definitions gymnastics
Oh hey, what do you know? You’re labelling them a tankie because they’re too prone to using Marxist definitions!
Not all Marxist definitions are mental gymnastics to defend imperialists, no. Until today I thought none of them were, but I haven’t read everything he wrote so you could be right about some of them.
Either way, you’re still wrong to assert that I beleive Marxist Definitions = Tankie. Marx wasn’t a tankie.
TL;DR: “This comment you just made explains away my confusion so I refuse to respond to it because I am (pretending to be) confused about the other comment you made.”
Claiming that it’s a blatant lie after I described you calling them a tankie and you replied “that’s not what I was asserting,” wtf you’re just trolling.
You described why I called them a tankie, and your why was wrong.
It’s not trolling, you’re just too thick or bad at English reading to figure it out.
Hell, you don’t even read my comments before you downvote them and you call me the troll? Blocking you unless my most recent comment is an eye-opener and you apologize or get back on topic.
Removed by mod
I’m not interested in discussing anything else with you until you answer my other comment, because it seems to me that you just blatantly lied claiming you didn’t label the other user a tankie.
That’s because you have difficulties reading and comprehending English or logic.
Even now you’re labelling them a tankie again, after claiming not to.
Speaking of blatant lies…
Hint:
Point out the comment where I said I didn’t label them a tankie.
You’re trying to deny labelling them a tankie now? That’s just a blatant lie.
Another straw man. Try again.
Trying to divine Russia’s True Motivations for invading Ukraine is a total Red Herring side show distraction in the context of this discussion.
The problem we’re discussing is that tankies employ definitions gymnastics to escape giving traditionally capitalist negative labels to their beloved authoritarian dictatorships, like “imperialist” and “tyrant.”
“Russia is not imperialist because they only invade for irredentist reasons” and “Russia is not imperialist because they oppose imperialist nations” are both half-cooked, dumb assertions.
It doesn’t matter if Russia invades other countries and takes their resources because they think the Bible says they should, because there are people with similar genetics in neighboring countries, or because Putin is bored; it’s still imperialist.
Imagine if someone said the USA is not imperialist because they’re only bombing Iran to fulfill a biblical prophesy, so they’re actually just theocratic. That’s obviously a ridiculous thing to say and you wouldn’t jump in to defend them because you’re biased to defend tankies but not western capitalists.
Another straw man. Try again.