Anyway seized they should be.
It doesn’t help the working class if a different group like the Vanguard seize them instead.
The vanguard is not a different group. The vanguard is the part of the group that ends up doing something first.
It’s not separate from the group, and it’s often not even distinguished from the group in any way aside from the fact that it was motivated enough to act first.
That’s like saying that the bourgeois are just the workers that did really well for themselves.
That’s like saying that the bourgeois are just the workers that did really well for themselves.
No, it’s not. It’s like saying that the leaders and organizers within the working class will lead the working class and ensure that the means of production are managed after they are seized. Someone (an individual or a group) has to do it, and they should know what they are doing.
The person I responded to said “a different group”. My point is that it’s a subset of the larger group. Yes, it’s possible to take advantage of the situation and try to grab power afterward. If that subset seized it to enrich themselves, they are class traitors - they are of the working class but betrayed them. However, some person or group needs to literally lead and manage, usually democratically. It can’t be literally the entirety of the working class.
All of this is just twisting terms and concepts to try to sow distrust in communist or socialist theory, assuming there will always be some secret group of elites scheming to take everything for themselves the moment the means are seized.
as long as they get seized
If the Vanguard seize the means of production, then the Working class still need to seize the means of production or we’re still at square one.
i think this would be the proper way. ideally the vanguard would slowly transition power to the Working class willingly. i think the working class in its entirety is not conscious enough to organize a revolution.
And ideally capitalism would wither away and die on its own accord. The vanguard is not credible enough to wield authority over the working class.
sure thats one way of viewing it. if push come to shove the working class always has the power to overthrow the vanguard. yet large populations are generally to stupid to do so due to all the propaganda and reeducation (see the USA currently). first one would need to remove capitalism from the equation, and create political education that is systemically impossible to manipulate or censor. after that the working class will gain consciousness over time.
That is true, but it’s a huge undertaking to do even once, let alone twice in ‘rapid’ (10-30 years) succession once it turns out the vanguards have become the oldguards.
Systemic change need to happen naturally from a grass-roots level if it is to truly last as an alternative to the status quo. It needs to be something that all people feel heard and supported in, and want to see succeed.
This is one of the beauties of anarchism in that it promotes local groups to flourish, and to make the changes they need to suitable for their needs and environs. You can start working on secondary support systems without needing to wait for the revolution.
systemically impossible to manipulate or censor
I hope you have some ideas because I have serious doubts that’s possible in any political/economic system.
This is wrong on two levels.
The first is in separating the vanguard from the working classes. The vanguard is a subsection of the working classes chosen by the rest of the working classes. Vanguards derive their power from the bottom-up.
The second is in assuming the working classes are stupid and easily duped. People instead license themselves to believe what they think benefits them is good. Socialist systems have always focused on education and literacy programs because a society run by the working classes works better with more informed members, but even within capitalism workers still come to understand the necessary conditions for their own liberation simply by existing within the brutally oppressive systems.
The vanguard is a subsection of the working classes chosen by the rest of the working class
The Vanguard chose themselves and if you don’t like it, straight to Lubyanka
Historically vanguards only ever derive any form of power or legitimacy through popular support from the broader working classes. Had vanguards not been popularly supported, they would have failed. You can see examples of supposed “vanguards” that do fail, such as the Gonzaloist CPP Shining Path, which slaughtered peasants and alienated themselves from the working classes.
It’s in the interests of the Vanguard for Revolution to never end. I consider it unlikely that they would willingly transition.
oh look, another communist vs anarchist meme… yep, they should fight each other, not the capitalists….
and of course i need to mention that the USSR was only communist in name and are nearly the worst possible example of communism….
Elmer Fud strikes againdeleted by creator
I got plenty of criticism for everyone who needs it, not sparing anyone. And the communists I see shitting on anarchists in the Fediverse are frequently also the ones calling for leftist solidarity.
