Also, not really, his assertions were grossly exaggerated compared to what the sources provided claimed. The truth appears to be in the middle of us somewhere, closer to what I said him in my opinion.
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You are 14 out of the 30 notifications I have remaining. I assume the information you say you’ve provided is probably somewhere in there. That’s after the dozens of responses to you and others in here. At a glance, just about every comment from you goes out of its way to belittle and demean me. I admit I’ve matched energy with some people I probably shouldn’t have, probably including you, maybe even been the one to get heated first a couple times, but god damn, man, calm the fuck down.
I’m no longer interested in being the target for your abuse. I’ll read what you wrote so far when I get a chance over the next day or two and consider it. If you have any good information you think I should look at, I invite you to reply with it here, and I’ll try to get to it as soon as I can because, despite what you assume and try to portray me as, I’m open to learning, and I’m trying to do what I can with the meager time I have, like giving up most of my one day off just to try to learn a little from a bunch of assholes who’d rather berate me. I’m trying, I’m open to learning, and you’re determined to make that as painful as possible.
If you feel inclined to reply or message me for anything other than relaying any material you find relevant, please go fuck yourself with a rusty rake instead. I’ll try to give your recommendations an honest shot in the interest of maybe learning something, but you I have no interest in conversing with anymore.
Go ahead and gargle my balls and never reply again. Someone actually showed up, delivered a bunch of sources, and I learned the problem was worse than I thought it was. Still nowhere near as bad as Russia and many in here want me to believe, but worse than I thought when I came in here. I’d say speaking with you was a complete and utter waste of my time, but since the other guy actually provided the info, I’ll settle for telling you to shut the fuck up, gargle my balls, and please never defile my inbox with your inane replies again.
Thank you for actually bringing sources. I’ve tried to find them myself, but search engines heavily favor current events, so it’s difficult to find anything as old as these. I’ve probably asked literally a dozen times for sources in an honest attempt to engage with the subject, and so far, I’m FAR more likely to be verbally abused for not blindly agreeing than to actually receive information. Only one person before you has even done so much as to provide a couple names as decent starting points for research. The sheer amount of vitriol combined with a complete lack of genuine evidence was making me increasingly sure it was completely baseless.
https://www.reuters.com/article/opinion/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TC/
This one makes it clear that the Nazis exist in too large a capacity, but it also outright states that some of the claims that it’s a Nazi regime are just not true. While few in number, they do seem to be receiving a concerning amount of freedom and power. This one makes it seem like the problem is bigger than I expected but still certainly not at the level people here like to portray it as. I can understand the inclination to make a deal to set aside differences temporarily and enable what they perceive to be a lesser threat to aid them against a greater mutual threat, but I’m not so sure it’s a good idea.
This one paints about the same picture, more prominent than I expected but still nowhere near the system issue portrayed by Russia.
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/the-ukrainian-revolutions-neo-fascist-problem-14785/
This is the first thing I’ve seen that tries to construct a timeline that attempts to pin revolution at the culmination of Euromaidan on the fascistic elements of Ukraine. I’ve certainly heard the accusation here before, but nobody could ever offer anything resembling evidence of it, so this is interesting to see.
I’ve had a bit of trouble following just because the author uses a bunch of unfamiliar names and just assumes I understand them, so I may be misinterpreting things a bit, so correct me if I’m wrong, but it does sort of diminish its own message to some extent. For example,
Having gotten word of this radicalization and quasi-militarization, Yanukovich’s Berkut special police forces paid informal titushki thugs to beat up demonstrators on the night of November 30. The result was the radicalization and militarization of Maidan, and a vindication for the creation of the sotniki and Right Sector.
They’re kinda trying to gloss over it, but it sounds like the government was brutalizing protesters, and a more militant wing of the protests eventually decided that wasn’t gonna fly anymore. Sounds about right for a faction trying to suck up to Russia.
But the Maidan’s sotniki violated the February 21 agreement within hours. Rather than withdrawing from buildings and squares in Kiev, they occupied more buildings and threatened to take the presidential administration and kill Yanukovich. When Yanukovich fled Kiev for Kharkiv, the radicals stormed the parliament and oversaw the president’s illegal impeachment in violation of the constitutional procedure for such. They helped prevent the required quorum and kept down the pro-Yanukovich vote in the impeachment by detaining and sometimes beating deputies from his Party of the Regions. In other words, the ultra-nationalists and neo-fascists spearheaded the revolutionary seizure of power using significant force.
This actually raises an interesting question for this community. My understanding is that the unrest began primarily because the president defied the will of both the legislature and the people to overrule an attempt to build closer ties with the EU and move away from Russia. Feel free to correct me on that if you can provide good evidence for that, but it’s my understanding of the cause.
So you have a president defying pretty much everyone to build ties with a nation that the majority want to move away from. It seems to be pretty widely accepted in this community that violence is an acceptable remedy to that sort of situation. Then is it acceptable for the wrong people to do the right thing here? Let’s accept the premise that the violence of the revolution was driven by the fascist elements. If the government blatantly defies the people it governs and the legislature, is it acceptable for fascists to help correct that, assuming they correct the problem and stop? Obviously, Nazis aren’t prone to stopping when they’re winning, so that’s a problem in its own right, but the waters become murky, and I’d never really considered the possibility of a Nazi faction ending up on the right side of… Anything at all. I really don’t like the idea of working with the Nazis, but which is easier to deal with later, them or the government you’ve yet to overthrow? Do we let the broken clock be right twice a day, or do we step in to make sure they get absolutely no power at all?
Ultimately, I think it’s a dangerous game at best to work with them, so probably not the right call. Still, Nazis are evil because they do Nazi shit, but that doesn’t make everything a Nazi does evil by default. I dislike the can of worms this has opened. I’ll have to think on this more. My gut reaction says tell the Nazis to fuck off, but… I dunno.
More importantly, for his organizational efforts on the Maidan, radical nationalist Parubiy was given the key post of chairman of Ukraine’s Security and National Defense Council. He would focus much of his activity on recruiting his “hundreds” and Right Sector-like groups into the Ukrainian army and National Guard prior and during the “antiterrorist” operation in the east.
This is the first evidence I’ve actually seen that the problem could be considered systemic to any extent. It sounds like it’s not to the extent people try to portray it as, but this does sound like the sort of thing that festers into rot if left untreated. The good news is he only seems to have held the position for a few months, so that was addressed. The bad news is he seems to have gotten elected into parliament. I would hope that was for his aid in the revolution, not for his fascistic views, but it’s still concerning he’d be elected. Somewhat understandable given the recent revolution, that sort of thing can build a cult of personality, but still concerning and a mistake.
None of the above should be construed as a claim that all the forces in the post-Maidan government are neo-fascist, as some Russian statements state or imply.
Even this article denies the Russian stance that Ukraine is just swarming with Nazis, though.
That said, this does paint a picture of Nazis being given far too much leeway, which is concerning in its own right. I’d be interested in an update on the topic given this article is 12 years old.
This is one I have some issues with, primarily because of the sources they’re using. Many are gone, which makes the claims hard to verify, and some of the rest are using sources somewhat questionably. For example,
They’ve marched by the thousands through the streets to commemorate WWII-era nationalist formations who took part in ethnic cleansing. They’ve acted as vigilantes with little to no negative reaction from state authorities.
The source linked as “vigilantes” doesn’t mention anything about vigilantes. Still, the claims seem mostly reasonable, but they’d take a little extra verification.
Members of Ukraine’s far-right also offer themselves up as thugs for hire – sometimes with deadly consequences. This summer, anti-corruption activist Kateryna Handziuk was the victim of a horrifying acid attack. In July, several extremists – who apparently were paid by corrupt local police to carry out the attack – doused her with sulfuric acid, burning her over 40 per cent of her body. She died from her injuries in November.
This is tragic, but it does seem to suggest Ukraine is trying to do something about corruption and has been for the last 7 years at least.
It’s time to talk about why Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, up for re-election in March, is happy to flirt with hardline nationalist rhetoric and hasn’t bothered to condemn incidents like last month’s attack on a peaceful protest.
The good news here is that Zelenskyy won instead, so the populace seems to have opted not to endorse that.
Like the last article, this one does make it seem that nationalists in Ukraine are a bigger problem than I expected but not the problem as it is frequently presented here.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-anti-semitism-racism-and-the-far-right/
This one actually seems to downplay the issue more than the others. It still openly admits that there is definitely a problem with nationalist factions in Ukraine, but it goes out of the way to highlight that there’s little public support compared to other countries like Germany, France, and Italy, so this actually gives me a little hope that the problem can be cleaned up once things are over with Russia.
Overall, my takeaway is that the truth was closer to the middle than I expected. Ukraine is most certainly not crawling with Nazis, but they have allowed nationalists and Nazis to operate with too much impunity. I would be very interested in seeing more up-to-date info if you know of anything worth looking at. I’m concerned that this is a case of trying to weaponize a rabid dog, but I’m holding out hope it can be fixed once they have the stability to look inward again.
Thank you again for taking the time to find some quality information for me to look over.
Nah, they’re very frequently racist as hell, but I wouldn’t brand most of them as neo-confederates. I don’t think there’s enough drive to reinstitute slavery to brand them as such. I think most would settle for just making white people a legally elevated class. To be clear, that’s still despicable, unacceptable, and a path towards the resurgence of neo-confederates, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be a distinction between the groups. More useful idiots to neo-confederates than actual members.
Jesus Christ, go learn something before you talk about it here.
Have you considered that attempting to discuss the topic is a good way to talk to people with differing view points and new information they can share on the topic? Maybe the fact that other people are aware of other sources of information and that talking to them can be a good way to learn new places to find info?
That said, after having openly offered to learn about the topic probably literally close to a dozen times, you’re the first person who’s given me anything that even resembles a good starting point for research. Most can’t get beyond insulting me for questioning it to make it to “here’s a photo of 10-20 dudes in front of a flag that you should totally extrapolate to representative of a whole nation”. I’d appreciate if you could share any sources you have that you’d consider especially informative on the topic.
Let me put it more on your level, then.
You spend much time talk shit. Could spend half minute, find proof, shut me up good. If many Nazis doing Nazi things, should be easy.
You’re spending an awful lot of time and effort to talk shit about how I’m allegedly not engaging in good faith, but if these Nazis were rampant enough to be doing everything you’re pinning on them, because recall that you said these things were being done by a Nazi regime, it should be pretty fucking trivial to muster literally anything to support your claims and shut me up. Just one piece of actual genuine evidence that there’s a Nazi regime in Ukraine, and you’d shut the whole thing down. Instead, you’d rather invest all this time to belittle me and pretend I’m not openly presenting an opportunity to change my mind. The best evidence I’ve seen so far is maybe all of 50 dudes around flags in half a dozen photos at most. Given that asking for evidence of Nazis is more likely to see me verbally abused than to see me actually being shown that there are Nazis in Ukraine, I can only assume that some people are very interested in lying about Nazis in Ukraine. Otherwise, if there were genuinely a massive Nazi problem in Ukraine, surely its opponents would be more open to spreading word of the problem.
In other words, you can’t really refute a single word I said, so you’re going to imply I’m lying and bounce. This is by far the most vitriol I’ve ever faced for openly being willing to consider fresh evidence and change my perspective, and you’ve made it quite clear you’re not arguing in bad faith. I assume you make the accusation against me purely to muddy the waters and make it seems like a simple “no u!” when you’re inevitably called for it.
Maduro also did not cancel elections, right?
I am unfortunately not well informed on the current and recent state of Venezuela, so I’m not going to try to pretend I can form a well informed opinion on what he’s done. I’ve heard some bad things recently, of course, but the timing makes it feel like justification for what was planned, so it’s definitely a tinted view at best. All I can really say on Maduro is that it was most likely a bad idea for Trump to take him like that. I’m open to learning more, but I unfortunately can’t keep up with everything.
That is under Zelensky, right?
If so, then claims against Putin and Maduro also are wrong, as they also have council-equivalents, ministries of defense, agencies etc.
Hmmm that’s actually a fair question, but I’m not entirely sure they’re equivalent. While the state as a whole certainly takes blame for actions of any of its agents, for individuals, it depends on what they have control over, and while the head of state’s powers are generally extensive in any state, they are generally not complete. For an example from the jurisdiction I’m most familiar from, I wouldn’t blame the US president for a law passed by Congress with a strong enough majority to override a veto because they effectively have no power there.
Speaking more directly on the individuals you mentioned, I’m going to pass on Maduro for the reasons I stated earlier. As for Putin, I think he takes a larger portion of blame than many other heads of state as he has accumulated a significantly larger portion of the state’s power. He has managed, for example, to have the constitution amended so he can retain power well beyond the limits when he first came into power, and the fact that Russia isn’t exactly known for election integrity suggests a wide capacity to corrupt even aspects of the government that should be well outside his control. He may get some blame for things genuinely out of his control, but his corruption does obscure the exact extent of his power.
As for Zelenskyy, this did warrant some more research into who in the government made the call and the hierarchies they operate under. I found this article, which goes into some of the details.
On March 18, 2022, the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine decided to suspend, for the duration of martial law, the activities of certain political parties with ties to the Russian Federation. Zelenskyy signed a decree the next day. A week later, the Verkhovna Rada introduced a draft law to amend the existing legislation on political parties, specifically to add a restriction on “justification, recognition as legitimate, [or] denial of armed aggression against Ukraine,” as well as “glorification, justification of actions and/or inaction of persons who carried out or are carrying out armed aggression against Ukraine.” The law was unanimously adopted on May 3rd.
The activities of 11 political parties were affected, all with ties to Russia or in violation of the law. Five other parties were charged with the crime of “helping the occupier.” Per the legislation, lawsuits were filed by the Ministry of Justice in order to obtain judicial bans and forced dissolution. As of June 2023, “the Eighth Administrative Court of Appeal upheld the claims of the Ministry of Justice of Ukraine to ban the activities of 18 political parties.” According to the Rule of Law Research Center, “after the execution of the court decision on the ban, the political party loses all its members and all its structural formations, that is, it completely ceases to exist as an association of citizens.”
Okay, so I had to look a bit deeper, and it seems the council serves under the president, but he’s required to include certain people, mainly various ministers of assorted ministries. Looking deeper again, though, most if not all of those ministers do seem to be appointed by the president, even if they do need to be approved by a legislature. Plus, he signed the decree, even if at their suggestion and even if the legislature reinforced it with codified law later. Given that, I admit you are correct that he must share at least some of the blame for the suspension of those parties, and I was incorrect to try to absolve him of all blame.
That said, I don’t disagree with the move. Not only are they under active attack, Russia has a known very recent history of attempting to interfere with and corrupt foreign parties and elections. Combined with their lack of election integrity at home, there is every reason to assume they would attempt to corrupt Ukrainian political parties and use them to amplify Russian propaganda and sway critical votes towards Russia’s goals and away from the will of the people, and there is no reason at all to assume they wouldn’t try. If Russia wants the political allies to be trusted in an emergency, maybe they should try not making allies through corruption and not being the reason their neighbors are having emergencies.
Regarding other claims, I did not see them here.
Well I exclusively pulled out of my own recent comment history, as in within the last month or so.
My understanding was that NATO expanded which baited Russia.
My understanding is that Ukraine is not in NATO and therefore does not deserve to have their sovereignty violated to satisfy Russia’s desire for safety guarantees. It is also my understanding that many of those NATO expansions happened as a direct result of Russian interference with or aggression towards neighbors, e.g. Finland and Sweden joined as a direct response to the invasion of Ukraine, so if Russia wants their neighbors to stop joining alliances to bolster defense against them, maybe they should stop terrorizing neighbors and making them feel unsafe. Whining about NATO expansion is crybully behavior, whining that your future victims saw it coming and teamed up to prevent it.
And there was growing Ukrainian supremacism with Russian speaking regions like Donbass being affected. Have read that their 2019 language law had exceptions for English and European Union’s official languages, while Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish languages did not have any. So, Russian speaking regions of Ukraine having issue is understandable there.
I’m unfamiliar with this topic and would be open to learning more if you have any good sources. From my understanding, Ukraine on the whole was moving away from Russia, so I could see that causing some tensions with the Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians. I usually see far more extreme claims about what’s being done to the eastern Ukrainians, but they can never seem to come up with evidence for the more extreme claims, and this feels grounded enough to be possible, so yeah, if you have sources, I’m open to being convinced.
The Nazi symbols on some Ukrainian soldiers too.
I’ve heard a lot of claims of Ukrainian Nazis, but I’m increasingly convinced it’s a grossly exaggerated issue. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen pictures around here of a couple small groups, but the grand total was like 50 people around some flags or wearing symbols, and whole 50 Nazis is certainly 50 too many, it’s far from the systemic issue people try to claim. I’ve asked for evidence many times now, and at this point, I think I’m more likely to be verbally abused for asking for evidence than to receive even a really shitty piece of “evidence” that doesn’t actually prove anything. The animosity towards an open willingness to consider fresh evidence makes it feel more like Russian propaganda than truth. That said, I’m still open to being proven wrong. Just don’t expect me to assume the whole nation is swarming with them because of something like a picture of a dozen dudes around a flag.
My understanding is that Western imperialist powers wants to isolate Russia, setup NATO bases around them and squeeze them, for not falling in line as a vassal.
My understanding is that many of the more recent states to join NATO did because they saw how Russia treats their neighbors, like Sweden and Finland as mentioned above. It looks an awful lot like Russia bullied their neighbors and then got really upset about it when some of the other neighbors started banding together so they wouldn’t be next. If Russia wants neighbors to stop joining NATO, they should probably stop making their neighbors feel like they’d be safer in NATO.
NATO was getting closer to Ukraine, arranged regime change in 2014 etc.
My understanding is that the general public was moving towards the EU while state officials moved towards Russia, resulting in regime change. I’ve seen poll data from shortly before the 2014 invasion of Crimea that showed there was even a trend in eastern Ukraine of moving away from Russia, which is part of why the referendum to join Russia was seen as so suspicious, not only were they trending away, but then 95.5% voted to join Russia? Combined with the fact that the referendum was held after Russia invaded and gained control of the region and Russia’s lack of election integrity, a vote of 95.5% in Russia’s favor when recent polling data showed they probably wouldn’t even pull a majority just looks like a “fuck you, what are you going to do about it?” vote count.
I’ll try to check out the video later, but I’ve already spent more time than I really had available researching and writing this up.
because your deeply buried post on a week old thread didn’t get any replies
You’re not very good at making assumptions since that’s not it. I’ve only replied asking for evidence to active threads, and I’ve repeatedly gotten responses “attempting” to provide proof. It’s just shit tier proof every single time.
Oh okay. It’s because the military rules the country. That’s why it’s okay to not have democracy anymore.
The military would probably freely give back control if Russia would fuck off back to where they belong. Either way, how exactly do you propose they run the election so that the parts actively being contested by Russia get to vote AND guarantee that Russia, who isn’t even known for election integrity at home, won’t meddle in a foreign election that might get them a submissive leader elected? I’d love to see them have routine elections, and maybe I just haven’t thought it all the way through, but I don’t see how this turns into anything other than either A. An opportunity for Russia to stuff the ballot boxes and force victory by submissive leadership, or B. Disenfranchisement of eastern Ukrainians to protect ballot integrity. I don’t like either option, and I’m guessing you’re extra not fond of option B. Probably pretty keen to let Russia stuff those ballots, though.
And in order to keep the country Ukrainian we need to prevent the people who live there from having any say in what “Ukraine” is.
Almost. To keep it Ukrainian, they need to make sure the active invader with a bad reputation for election integrity doesn’t get a chance to violate the integrity of their election. Since you care so much about their democratic rights, I would think you’d want to be extra sure there wasn’t interference.
Are you so fucking stupid that you’re bringing up your deliberate bad faith as a POSITIVE???
Okay, let me rephrase this on the off chance you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not asking for a super high bar to be cleared. The bar is a tripping hazard in hell, and here you are still trying to limbo dance with the devil. All I want is some evidence that doesn’t show me a tiny fraction and try to make me assume I can extrapolate it to a nation. You know, actual fucking evidence, not a pile of blurry photos with a grand total of 50 people in them, nor a map where none of the fucking points are in Ukraine. I want to see evidence that there are more than 50 Nazis in Ukraine. 50 may still be a lot of Nazis, but it’s not enough to cause the systemic problems people in here like to claim. I am willing to entertain anything you may consider evidence so long as it actually shows a systemic issue. You can decide how to prove that however you want so long as you actually show a systemic issue, not just a handful of raging assholes with a camera and a flag. A few pictures of small groups of Nazis in Ukraine only proves that they are unfortunately not extinct, not that they are the widespread issue you claim they are.
Meanwhile, as I try repeatedly to engage in the topic in good faith, despite your claims to the contrary, you do nothing but belittle and insult me. Rather than turning me to your side, it only further convinces me not only that you are utterly without proof, but that you know the claims you are making cannot be backed by proof. You insult me not because it’s genuinely deserved, but because you’re desperately trying to steer the topic away from the fact that we both know you’re 100% full of shit, at least on the topic of Ukrainian Nazis being the systemic, pervasive issue you claim.
You could have just as easily latched onto my mentioning the ethnic cleansing.
I mean, that’s a key trait of the Nazis. I figured it kinda came together, but alright, I could have been a little more specific and brought it up sooner, but I was really hoping today would be the day someone can actually find the Nazi evidence. Besides, if Nazis are the ones doing the ethnic cleansing, it should be trivial to prove there are Nazis, right?
You could have just as easily latched onto the illegal western coup that stole democracy from Ukraine in the first place.
Tried to go down that road with people several times. Never seems to go anywhere. Everybody likes to call it a coup, but nobody can prove it’s anything other than butthurt that Ukraine moved towards the West.
You could have just as easily stayed on the original topic of conversation and responded to the actual fucking point about how the nazi government you love so much took away the mere trappings of democracy in that country.
You mean how elections are suspended because they’re under martial law? As far as I’m concerned, that’s Russia’s fault. Ukraine is already bound by their constitution, and it would be extremely difficult to change in the middle of war. Ukraine’s choice was to either enact martial law and fight back, losing elections temporarily, or submit to Russia and lose Ukrainian elections permanently. If you want them to be able to vote, get pissed at Russia. They’re free to fuck off back to their own land any time they’d like.
That would be too honest and in good faith for trash like you to engage in.
Oh fucking please, your arrogant ass is just trying to cover up the fact you can’t prove a god damn thing. You’re raging over there like a child that refuses to accept their bedtime because you got called on your slop, and since there’s no real defense of it, you gotta go on the offensive on me directly.
You latched onto the existence of the nazi regime because you have practiced being obstinate and intransigent on this subject. You made it absolutely clear that you wouldn’t even engage in this tangent of yours in good faith by bragging about how no one could possibly convince you and refusing to allow a condition up front that would satisfy your requirements for proof.
My guy, you know what evidence people have managed to bring me? A map of monuments in Europe, of which almost none were in Ukraine. A photo of one dude with a blurry patch next to Zelenskyy that they swear is Nazi symbolism if you squint hard enough. A photo of like two dozen dudes in military-ish gear around a flag that, while certainly concerning, is in no way indicative of a systemic problem. A couple more photos of even smaller groups. I’m not being unreasonable for not calling that definitive proof.
I’m not denying there are Nazis in Ukraine entirely, I’m sure there’s at least some just as there are basically everywhere even if the exact flavor if Nazi varies slightly.
Hell, I didn’t even set conditions on proof. I just said nobody can ever find anything that actually proves shit. They wanna show me some of the bullshit I mentioned early that proves nothing other than that Ukrainian Nazis aren’t entirely extinct. Which, for the record, is a shame, they should be.
You’re an intellectual coward. And that’s exactly how a nazi argues by the way.
You wanna talk intellectual cowardice? Let’s look at your personal attacks. Let’s look at how you came unglued on me the instant I actually requested evidence of your assertion of Nazis in complete good faith, I was ready to learn something. Let’s look at how, in spite of all that, in spite of all your rage over these alleged Nazis, you still won’t even try to find a single shred of genuine evidence
And then, because I won’t buy your story at the very first mention of it, because I won’t take the flimsiest of evidence and run with it, I’m an intellectual coward and a Nazi? I’d say you’re a fucking clown, but frankly, that’d be an insult to clowns. You’re full of shit, I know it, you know it, but you just can’t admit it, especially in public. Do yourself a favor and stop replying. You just embarrass yourself acting like a petulant child.
I’d rather actually get some evidence that Ukraine is as systematically rife with Nazis as people in here like to claim. Once again, for like the 5th or 6th time, I’ve openly stated I’m willing to consider the possibility if only someone can provide some evidence, and nobody can muster anything. I’m trying to stay open minded about it, but the fact that nobody can find anything more than a handful of group photos, it’s starting to smell like a crock of shit.
Oh neat, another shitty piece of “evidence” that doesn’t actually prove the point at hand. I’m not saying it’s a great look, but the vast majority aren’t even in Ukraine, and given the height of the pins, it looks like there probably aren’t even very many in Ukraine. If I’m wrong and there’s a bunch of them in there, then it’s still not good evidence since it can’t make your point clearly.
Do you think it’s been so long that I don’t remember my own post?
I dunno what your deal is, but yeah, you seem to be struggling to keep up with your own bullshit. Two out of three paragraphs were about Ukrainian Nazis, and the third was questioning how I could be cool with that.
Honestly, this just feels like a pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that I was willing to consider proof. It was all fine and dandy to talk about Ukrainian Nazis, but as soon as the topic of proving Ukrainian Nazis are a systemic problem came up, you can’t fathom how we got onto this topic, and clearly I’m just distracting from the real topic somehow by expressing an interest in having your claims verified. You know god damn well it’s a lie, so as soon as evidence comes up, you vehemently disengage from the topic and try to paint me as an idiot and a Nazi apologist. Where my Nazi apologia was just to say that I’d be totally open to looking at evidence they’re a real problem if only someone could actually provide it.
Fucking hilarious you want to call me a Nazi apologist for having the audacity to question an imperialist aggressor’s narrative. It’s obvious your fragile little ego can’t handle getting called out for the shit you spew, so you result to personal attacks like a child.
My guy, your entire fucking post was about Ukrainian Nazis. So I responded and discussed Ukrainian Nazis. What the fuck do you want to talk about if it’s not Ukrainian Nazis, and why didn’t you just say that in the first place? If it’s such a tangent, it’s one you went down and I followed, but now it’s my fault we’re here somehow. And once again, there’s still no evidence of the Nazis being widespread, so this just feels like trying to dodge the fact that someone actually called for evidence.
Oh well since it’s legal and they have to do it due to martial law I guess their hands are twisted. Such unfortunate circumstances really.
Well, they could just let the imperialist invader’s allies run rampant. Funny how imperialism is somehow only bad when the west does it. If the US was invading somewhere, this community would call for members of parties allied with the US to be executed, but since this is against The West, not by The West, it’s not imperialism, it’s just sparkling war of conquest.
personally think it is a bad thing when habeas corpus gets dissolved. I think it’s a bad thing when you get arrested because the government does not like who you associate with. Even if my government were to think my associates are undesirables. But that’s just me, thinking you should be free to do stuff like talk to people. Or write in Russian. Or speak russian.
Literally none of this is relevant. They’re not arrested. They just can’t act as a political party. Because they have active ties to an actual military invader.
Or at least vote in the regions that aren’t actively invaded, which is part of the whole martial law thing. But that’s just me, thinking people should have their democratic rights protected.
I want to agree, but I’m not sure it’s viable for a few reasons. One, anyone in occupied territory is excluded from the election that way, which means eastern Ukraine, the part with more Russian citizens and speakers, the side people here claim to care so deeply about, would be excluded while the western faction everyone here seems to hate would be left essentially unchecked. Sounds like that’d disenfranchise people, particularly the ones this community professes to support. Two, just because an invader doesn’t control a region doesn’t mean they can’t act in it. I would 100% expect Russia to do their damnedest to interfere as widely as they possibly could because if they can corrupt the election, they can force in someone who will just submit to them.
Now, it’s possible I just haven’t thought of all the possibilities, so I’m open to being convinced there’s a better way. But nobody can ever come up with a way to not disenfranchise big chunks of the population in votes that directly impact them without giving Russia ample opportunity to try to force in who they want in opposition to the will of the people.
I suppose if you’re a fascist you think it’s awesome when ethnic minorities get persecuted, the freedom of assembly gets destroyed, the right to vote, the right to speak out and so many other rights get suppressed, is awesome. Especially since it’s legal to do.
This is just you shoving words in my mouth to construct an easy strawman.
It’s not like governments ever lie or anything, it’s not like there’s any reason to doubt their motives, it’s not like the political parties that get targeted are very conveniently the ones in opposition. It’s not like politicians ever try to construct a narrative about what they do.
It’s wild that this line of thinking never gets turned around on Russia. Nobody in here ever wants to question Russia’s motives. Nobody in here ever wants to question info that makes The West look bad. Nobody wants to consider the fact that no nation gets into a position of such power as Russia through benevolence, only through gross exploitation, and they only manage to perpetuate that position through more gross exploitation.
In fact I remember when Putin invaded he said word for word “I am invading Ukraine. I don’t care what people think. I do this because I am evil, I want to make Russia bigger and I am jealous of zelensky. I order this personally and in spite of the popular will.” That’s how it works after all. These guys can’t lie, so he must’ve said that.
See, you’re so close to actually questioning Russia’s honesty here.
I’ve got my dunks in, so I’m gonna block you now, since it’s obvious you’re too thickheaded to understand what is being told.
Lmao I called out two very obvious lies, you went off on a tangent to find an excuse to shit talk me, and now I’m NoT wOrTh YoUr TiMe. Yeah, I’m not surprised people in here are allergic to facts. They’ve got some decent ideals in here, but god damn do they love to for propaganda against The West.
Tangent? Your post was about Ukrainian Nazis. Let’s look back at it.
If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn’t have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.
I apparently don’t care about them because I’m not resisting this Nazi regime that nobody can prove is anywhere NEAR extensive enough to qualify as an actual regime.
But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn’t be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.
Again, I’m allegedly terrible for not caring about the alleged Nazis.
So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?
Basically a bunch of questioning if my tolerance of the Nazis is stupidity or evil.
So… You ranted about Ukrainian Nazis. That was the central focus of your post. I then claimed that while I have repeatedly tried to be open to the possibility, nobody can ever seem to muster evidence that it’s anything more than a few relatively small groups, at least on a nation scale, being grossly exaggerated.
And then you act confused and treat me like I’m going off on a tangent to dodge some greater point, you absolute clown.
Which is the obvious ‘Russian propaganda’ shared here that you mention? Do list some.
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Zelenskyy canceled elections. He didn’t, they’re constitutionally forbidden under martial law, and he’s bound to the constitution. If you want Ukrainians to have elections again, get Putin to fuck off. They either had to enact martial law and lose elections temporarily or be conquered and lose Ukrainian elections permanently.
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Zelenskyy banned the opposition parties. He didn’t, that was a national defense council. Specifically, parties with active ties to Russia, the country actively invading them, were temporarily suspended only while under martial law, so they’ll be back once treasonous aid to the invader is off the table.
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Russia invaded because they were being attacked by people coming over the border from Ukraine. This was a wild claim because I can’t even find evidence that Russia claimed this, and when asked, they provided a bunch of articles about the 2014 “coup” that didn’t mention the alleged attacks.
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The vote to join Russia from… I think Crimea happened before the invasion. Might be mixing up events here, but I don’t have time to dig more up right now. But it didn’t. It didn’t happen until Russia had already seized the region, which is relevant because we cannot trust Russia to run fair elections, especially for a vote like that.
This is just what I found by glancing through my recent comment history to find recent claims made in Lemmy.ml posts. These are ones I actually had to verify myself, and all of them were trivially easy to prove are incorrect. All of these claims are extremely easily verifiable lies in favor of Russian goals. I’m not saying the people I heard it from are intentionally spreading propaganda. At least some portion are undoubtedly just people who have fallen for sweet sounding lies about perceived enemies they already hate, basically falling for confirmation bias.
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Christ, you’re 9 of the 18 notifications I have left including this one, and damn near everyone of them had you being a raging asshole. I’ve tried to listen to what people have to say, and I have openly and repeatedly invited people to bring new evidence, and here you are trawlimg my comment history to find new and exciting opportunities to insult me.
It’s like you’re trying to be such an asshole, nobody is ever willing to listen you or interact with you again, like you’re actively trying to drive people away from ever learning to agree with you.
I’ve tried to read what everyone said and reply yo everyone, but you? You can go fuck yourself with a rusty rake. Your abuse has no educational value, so I won’t be reading the rest in detail, I’ll just be blocking you. Maybe I’ll stumble into a Hexbear thread on accident again someday, but I’ll remain blissfully unaware of your shit ass.